Posts by rather be in hades

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

rather be in hades

Oh yes. Whales evolved from squirrels and monkeys who then jumped into the ocean for some unknown reason and then developed into whales. And by the way your uncle is a monkey, literally.

no, and to be perfectly honest, you need to learn a thing or two about science before you try to criticize it. that's NOT what evolution dictates, that's not what science says at all.

also, you should learn a thing or two about logical fallacies. it'd REALLY help you out bc that statement you made was beyond stupid and shows how little you know about biological sciences which is to be expected from anyone who thinks the watchtower is as factual as it gets while ignoring that the watchtower's own lawyer has admitted that the organization has pushed false prophecies and that it was more important to keep you sheep in line and marching on the wrong path, than it was for anyone to have an independent thought and correct the mistake

stay alive to '75!

maybe they meant 2075?

what exactly are you going to do when 2014 rolls around and it'll have been a 100 years since christ supposedly arrived to bring this all down? i thought that generation wasn't going to die...

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

rather be in hades

i think you need to re-read that again and frankly, i'm not looking on any exjw sites. just read rev7.

a waste of time imo.

the throne is where god is

the angels are where the throne is

the great crowd is standing before the throne

it's pretty damn simple really, but again, as i've stated, we already know that the bible is factually inaccurate. the exodus?

not a single, solitary shred of archaeological evidence that the isrealites were enslaved in egypt.

not a single shred of archaeological evidence that they wandered the wilderness for 40 years

no shred of evidence for the great flood, no evidence for any miracles, no evidence for jesus.

at least not the one in the bible. there might have been a philosopher named jesus, but he definitely wasn't god's only begotten son, birthed from a virgin, who walked on water, healed the sick with some spit and mud, and raised the dead.

there's NO contemporary accounts of any of this stuff. none. nada.

think about that. no one during lazarus' day bothered to write down that their buddy who was dead, smelly and rotting was raised back to life when some dude named jesus came around? the romans didn't mention the miracle healer who raised one of their officers' daghter from the dead? they didn't make mention of the miracle worker that was causing all kinds of issues in israel? earliest mentions of jesus came years after he died on some 2x4s. there's just nothing there to prove any of that stuff was real

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

rather be in hades

If the water is flowing out from the throne of God and the Lamb, and it can't possibly be talking about heaven

are you serious? find me a river flowing from a throne on earth...can't possibly be talking about earth...

do you not see the fallacy in that logic?

in any case, as much as i admittedly hate the bible, i googled this up and read it.

verse 9 says the crowd was standing before the throne and the lamb

verse 11 says that the angels were stading around the throne, etc and that they worshipped god

1. the crowd was before the throne

2. the angels were around the throne

3. the angels fell on their faces and worshipped god

so clearly, wherever the great crowd was, the throne was and wherever the angels were, the throne was.

for good measure, wherever the throne was, god also happened to be, unless the angels started worshipping the throne and i think from all those years reading my book of bible stories, we all know god is jealous and doesn't take kindly to people worshipping anything but him.

conclusion? great crowd is in heaven and what's even funnier is the argument using language.

i'm not sure what your profession is, but in technical writing (like owner's manuals and repair manuals), language is very important and anyone who has had to teach their grandparents how to record shows on the vcr knows that technical writing is hard to get down right

so here we have a book that claims to be the technical manual for life itself. the book frm which everyone on earth should base their lives on.

did god fail tech writing 101? it sure seems that way bc we have 3 major religions that claim to follow parts or all of the book, and we have god only knows how many christian sects with their own differeing viewpoints on how to interpret the instruction manual. i mean, even nutjobs like the westboro baptist idiots think they're following the bible and of course history has shown people are pretty quick to kill in the name of the author of the bible.

i'm sorry but if the bible is truly inspired and beneficial for teaching, reproving, and setting things straight, then it was inspired by a moron who couldn't get his thoughts into a coherent and cohesive message. at least not one that this planet, as dominated as it is by christian theology, can figure out and interpret correctly.

as a side point, if you are REALLY following god, and god is infallible, why can't your organization get the facts right? there's never been an organization that's screwed up as many times as yours in modern history when it comes to the bible. no seriously. that's TRUE. count how many end of the world false prophecies the watchtower leadership has thrown out there from the beginning and compare that to the numbers any other organization made.

from what i remember, there's something like 7 from the jws.

i don't think any other organization has made more than 3 and managed to stay afloat, of course, some of those groups committed mass suicide at the appointed time so maybe they could have taken the crown but sadly we'll never know.

but at least the watchtower society is number 1 in something...

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

rather be in hades

as a former pioneer, i was pretty up on the prophecies.

as an engineering student, i've done my own reserach...aka learned physics and science.

conclusion? well...i LEFT the jws.

the watchtower is factually inaccurate. that's a fact. not debateable. how on earth you can say that when they've ADMITTED TO FALSE PROPHECY, i have no idea.

once again, explain to me hayden covington's words while under oath.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

rather be in hades

i'm rather curious to see the response about tcovington and the walsh trial

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

rather be in hades

I actually did my own research and did my own examination.

that is very commendable. judging by the posts, that took quite a bit of time.

i think though, before you delve further into that research, you should question whether the bible is factually accurate bc if it isn't, then you are wasting your time trying to defend something that is indefensible

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

rather be in hades

question...is the great crowd even a real thing?

actually, better question...why did the watchtower admit to "erroneous statements and mistakes"?

a follow up question...doesn't that simple fact call into question everything else they are teaching?

why did the jws teach the end of the system would come in 1914? or 1925? or 1940s? 0r 1975? did jehovah change his time table?

better yet, can you explain why hayden covington, faithful witness until death and the lead council for the organization for many court cases would say this? (covington is on the stand btw, these are taken directly from court transcripts and he is the one being questioned.)

Q. Assume from me that it was promulgated as authoritative by the Society that Christ's Second Coming was in 1874?
A. Taking that assumption as a fact, it is a hypothetical statement.

Q. That was the publication of false prophesy?
A. That was the publication of a false prophesy, it was a false statement or an erronious statement in fulfilment of a prophesy that was false or erronious.

Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah's Witnesses?
A. Yes, because you must understand we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step.

Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated?
A. I agree that.

Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah's Witnesses?
A. That is correct.

Q. If a member of Jehovah's Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped?
A. Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erronious and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body*, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity.

Q. Unity at all costs?
A. Unity at all costs , because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time.

Q. And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy?
A. That is conceded to be true.

so once again, why put faith in an organization that is obviously spreading false prophecies? they even admitted it, under oath, on the stand, for the world to hear

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

rather be in hades

what question would that be?

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

rather be in hades

No crap arguments thrown out here. All of them from the Bible and a little thing called common sense.

the problem with this statement is mixing the bible and common sense. oil and water don't mix. neither does the bible and common sense.

the bible is a book. it's a story. it's a fairytale.

there's no factual basis a guy whose mom was a virgin walked around the sea of galillee miraculously curing people. there's so much factually inaccurate bs in the bible it's astounding. do you REALLY believe someone was swallowed whole by a fish for 3 days and WASN'T killed by

1. no oxygen

2. no food

3. not being digested by the fish/whale's gastric acid?

Just because I have not done so yet, does not mean I will not. It is something that requires extensive research and much time. And I think most JW's are more likely to be mislead by jwfacts arguments rather than a supposed Biblical inconsistency. So this has my priority.

JWs are being mislead by a group of liars in new york. the un controversy? the walsh trial? they ADMITTED to false prophecies. how many other "prophetic claims have they made that are wrong?

Will anyone address these points?

would love to...

1. The logical fallacy/double standard displayed when using the WT in your argument

no double standard at all. you can use someone else's words to expose the logical fallacies in their arguments. frankly, i'm not sure how you would be able to refute someone's statements WITHOUT referring to their previous statements.

taking a look at watchtower literature throughout the years, there's an astounding amount of lies and spin.

how did they get to 1914? the blood issues? organ transplants are cannibalism?

so how many people did the gb kill by coming up with THAT nonsense?

2. The use of the greek words that form the phrase "great crowd" being ambiguous and used in numerous circumstances, and thus not making an automatic connection of Revelation 7 and 19

this kinda goes back to how irrelevant the bible is. it is very clear that the bible is NOT some prophetic, factual book. i'm sure that sounded like a cop out to you since you believe in this stuff but let me say this...would you defend the language and arguments in a debunked science textbook while gnoring the fact that the book has no relevancy in reality? you'd might as well argue over the language written in cinderella.

3, 4, and 5 are all in the same vein. you're arguing and defending a book that has no basis in reality.

Or are we going to get more ad hominem attacks, more irrelevant hypothetical what if questions, and more attempts at sidetracking the issue into 607/1914/Biblical errancy/anything else to divert the issue at hand?

you might not like it, but the 607/1914 issue is very important.

1. it shows that the jws ARE teaching something that is FACTUALLY NOT TRUE

2. knowing that the central belief of jehovah's witnesses, the thing that supposedly makes them better than everyone else is wrong, then that cals into question EVERYTHING THEY TEACH.

3. with point 3 in mind, and an objective viewpoint, it's pretty easy to look at the inconsistencies of the jehovah's witnesses from inception and realize that they're just as full of crap as any other religion.

i'm sure you think you've scored some sort of "points", but the reality is, you didn't. you can argue scripture all day long and the reality is...your bible is irrelevant.plain and simple. so even though that particular argument might have been improper, it doesn't matter bc frankly the topic is irrelevant.

the bible...is not real.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

rather be in hades

recovery, 607 and 1914 are very relevant.

reason being? you are defending an organization that is clearly lying. if you do the research, you will see that they are clearly lying about that.

so why put any faith in an organization that can't tell the truth? or can't even be honest about being wrong?

as for your scriptual arguments, have you considered that those are all irrelevant because the bible is just a book?

it's not divine, it's certainly not from god and filled with some really oddball stuff.

ressurections, miracles, flood mythology, creation mythology, someone turning into a pillar of salt?

the list goes on and on.

why waste your time trying to defend something that has no basis in reality?